Open Carry Law for hand guns

    • 1780 posts
    February 16, 2011 11:08 PM PST
    I know it's been a while since I've been around, but my work has me meeting myself on the highway sometimes. Because I do work in such a potentialy dangerous enviorment this kind of subject is always on my mind. Some states this will not pertain, other states already have this law. Texas is having a hard time with this law. Weather you are for or against the law to allow citizents to open carry a gun in public will be debated for a long time to come. This is some insteresting reading on the Pro side of carrying a weapon in public.
    I have my own opinion, and for once think I will keep it to myself. So enjoy this nicely written article......


    The Open Carry Argument

    My primary goal when I’m out and about (besides whatever I went out and about to do) is to go about peaceably and not be the victim of a violent crime. To that end I carry a firearm whenever I go out as well as follow all the other standard safety practices like maintaining situational awareness, staying out of high crime areas, and avoiding confrontation. I also have a larger overall goal of making it through my life without shooting anyone. Simply put, I don’t want to be responsible, legally or morally, for another’s death. Those two goals might appear at first blush to be mutually exclusive, and with concealed carry it would be a difficult set of goals to realize.

    Carrying a concealed firearm presents to a criminal that I am unarmed. Every study I’ve ever read, not most but every study, says that criminals will avoid an armed person or home when selecting a victim. That only makes sense, right? Robbers, rapists, or carjackers might be dumb and opportunistic, but they have the same instinctual sense of self preservation we all have. Hyenas don’t attack lions to steal the gazelle the lions have just killed. It’s all about risk management; are the potential gains (a tasty gazelle dinner) worth the potential pain and damage the lion’s teeth will cause, and does the hyena really need to test the lion to figure out the answer? No, the hyena can see the lion’s teeth and knows to stay well clear.

    Deterrent Value:
    When I’m carrying concealed I feel like my ‘teeth’ are hidden, and thus of no real deterrent value. If I appear unarmed then I am unarmed in the eyes of the robber, I appear as easy a target as almost anyone else out on the street. My probability of being a victim of a crime, violent or otherwise, is completely unchanged by the fact that I have hidden beneath my shirt the means to defend myself. My goal, however, is not to be a victim in the first place, remember? I don’t want to be a victim that fought back successfully and triumphed; I prefer to not be victimized at all. Concealed carry is good; it throws a wrench in the works for criminals who might see the teaming masses as a smorgasbord of financial gain. This deterrent effect is, nonetheless, indirect. At some point the thug will weigh the risks vs. the gains; is his current desperation for money/drugs/booze/gold grille greater than the gamble that one of those people might be carrying a gun? If he decides to play the odds, which helped along with surprise tip the scale in his favor, he will attack. Will his attack allow enough time for me to draw my concealed firearm to affect a defense? Maybe, but then again, maybe not.

    Remember, I don’t want to be a victim and I don’t want to shoot anyone. So how do I realize both goals; or how do I make them inclusive? I can do that through open carry. By making it clear and obvious that I am armed, that I have teeth, I tip the risk scale to the point that the criminal’s gains are far outweighed by the risk. There is no ambiguity when the thug is doing his risk assessment, there’s something right there in plain sight that can quickly and painfully change or terminate his life. You may not think his life has much value, but as I mentioned before, he has the same sense of self preservation as any other living creature and to him it’s every bit as valuable as yours is to you. It would be foolish to ignore this indisputable fact when you develop your overall tactical strategy.

    First One To Be Shot:
    There are some who criticize open carry and claim it will make you more of a target or ‘the first one shot’ when a robber walks into the 7-11, despite the absolute lack of credible evidence that this has ever happened. If the robber walks in and sees that you’re armed, his whole plan has encountered an unexpected variable. In bank robberies where he might expect to see an armed guard he will have already factored that possibility into his plan, but only for the armed guard, not for open or concealed carry citizens. No robber robs a bank without at least a rudimentary plan. Nevertheless, being present for a bank robbery is an extremely remote possibility for most of us regardless of our preferred method of handgun carry. Back in the 7-11, if he sees someone is armed he is forced to either significantly alter the plan or abort it outright. Robbing is an inherently apprehensive occupation, and one that doesn’t respond well to instant modifications. He is not prepared to commit murder when he only planned for larceny. He knows that a petty robbery will not garner the intense police manhunt a murder would. He doesn’t know if you’re an armed citizen or a police officer and isn’t going to take the time to figure it out. Either way, if someone in the 7-11 is unexpectedly armed, how many others might be similarly adorned and where might they be? Does this armed individual have a partner who is likewise armed behind him in the parking lot, someone who is watching right now? Self preservation compels him to abort the plan for one that is less risky. So we see that the logic matches the history; open carriers are not the first ones shot because it doesn’t make any sense that they would be.

    Surprise:
    Probably the most common condemnation of open carry comes from the armchair tacticians who believe it’s better to have the element of surprise in a criminal encounter. Although this was touched on in the previous paragraph about deterrence, I’ll expand on it specifically here because there are some important truths you need to consider before you lean too heavily on this false support. Surprise as a defensive tactic is based on unrealistic or ill-thought out scenarios. The circumstance where several street toughs surround and taunt you for a while like in some Charles Bronson movie is not realistic; the mugger wants to get in and out as fast as possible. In most cases you will have only seconds to realize what’s happening, make a decision, and react. Imagine you’re walking along the sidewalk when two gangsta looking teenagers suddenly appear at the corner coming in the opposite direction. You have only seconds to react if their intent was to victimize you. Do you draw your concealed firearm now or wait until there’s an actual visible threat? If they are just on their way to church and you pull a gun on them, you are the criminal and you may forever lose your firearms rights for such a foolish action. If you don’t draw and they pull a knife or pistol when they’re just a couple steps away, your only options are draw (if you think you can) or comply. Imagine staring at the shiny blade of a knife being held by a very nervous and violent mugger, three inches from your or your wife’s throat and having to decide whether or not you have time to draw from concealment. The element of surprise may not do you any good; in fact the only surprising thing that might happen is that your concealed carry pistol gets taken along with your wallet. The thug will later get a good chuckle with his buddies about how you brought a gun to a knife fight. The simple truth is that while surprise is a monumentally superior tactical maneuver, it is exclusively an offensive action, not a defensive one. I am not aware of any army that teaches using surprise as a defense against attack. No squad of soldiers goes on patrol with their weapons hidden so that they can ‘surprise’ the enemy should they walk into an ambush.

    It Will Get Stolen:
    Another common criticism of open carry is that the firearm itself will be the target of theft, prompting as criminal to attack simply to get the gun from you. Like the previous example of being the first one shot in a robbery, above, this is despite the fact that there is no credible evidence it happens. It also blindly ignores the more obvious fact that anything you possess can make you the target of a crime, be it a car, a watch, or even a female companion (girlfriend, wife, or daughter). Crooks commonly steal for only two reasons; to get something you have that they want, or to get something that you have so they can sell it and buy something they want. There are no Robins in the hood trying to help the poor by stealing from the rich. I don’t claim it could never happen; just that it’s so remote a possibility that it doesn’t warrant drastic alterations to your self defense strategies. If you believe otherwise, leave your watch, sunglasses, jewelry, and cell phone at home, hop into your Pinto wagon, and head out to do your thing.

    It Scares People:
    One other statement against open carry I hear is that it damages public perception of firearms owners, or that by carrying openly we are not being good ambassadors to the public. While there are some people who have a genuine fear of firearms, due either to some horrible past experience or anti-gun indoctrination, the majority of people are either indifferent to them or quite fascinated by them. I’ve never kept track of the dozens of fellow citizens I’ve encountered who have marveled at the idea of open carry, but I do know exactly how many have expressed displeasure at it; one. People are scared of many things for many reasons; however, pretending those things do not exist only perpetuates the fear. Someone who is disturbed by open carry is going to be every bit as disturbed by concealed carry. The only effective way to overcome a fear is to come to the intellectual realization that the phobia is based on emotion and not on fact. By being a firsthand witness that a firearm was carried responsibly and peaceably, and wasn’t being carried in the commission of a crime, one discovers their fear is not fact based, but emotional. Thus, open carry can be a very effectual way of helping to overcome the emotionally based fear of the firearm. After all, you’d be much more likely to believe in ghosts if you saw one rather than if you listened to a ghost story around a campfire. We give much more credibility to the things we experience than we do to the things we hear. The bottom line is that this argument is made by people who don’t or haven’t carried openly; those of us who do so on a regular basis have an entirely different experience.

    I’m Not Comfortable Carrying Openly:
    This is really the only reasonable argument against open carry for an individual. We all have a comfort zone for any aspect of our lives and we prefer to stay within that comfort zone. We all agree that it’s better to be armed and never need the firearm than it is to need it and not have it. There is a point where concealing your firearm becomes so problematic, due to conditions like temperature or comfort, that some choose to either leave it behind or carry in such a way that it would be difficult or impossible to draw it quickly. If it takes me five or six seconds to draw my firearm from deep concealment and I had sufficient time before hand to do so, I would prefer to use that five or six seconds to avoid the entire encounter. I’m glad we have concealed carry laws in most of the states; it empowers and protects not only us but the general public through the offset deterrent effect. Some of us, however, choose the more direct deterrent effect of open carry. The combination of the two makes the criminal’s job that much more risky, that much more dangerous, and that much more uncertain.
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  • February 16, 2011 11:39 PM PST
    I would have to agree with the open carry argument, however, i carry everywhere and I can see several situations where open carry might not be appropriate.
  • February 16, 2011 11:58 PM PST
    Great article....excellent point of view....I'm with you.
    http://www.miamichoppershop.com alt="" src="./images/forum/emoticons/x-i_agree.gif" />
  • February 17, 2011 12:00 AM PST
    Well done! Whether you carry openly or concealed, should be an individual choice.
    • Moderator
    • 19067 posts
    February 17, 2011 12:03 AM PST
    Good post Kenny.
    • 1780 posts
    February 17, 2011 12:17 AM PST
    Shovelhead dude that is one BAD ASS seat......where you from to open carry like that?
    Dragon
    • 9 posts
    February 17, 2011 12:57 AM PST
    I'm on the fence with this one. I prefer concealed carry, I've had too many "surprises" of my own. But, open carry is a definite deterrent. I've done both, but strictly speaking from a woman's point of view, some people cannot be deterred, and I for one, like having that "element of surprise" in that scenario. Ride Free
    Tweek
    • 5420 posts
    February 17, 2011 12:58 AM PST
    Yep, great post!!! I know you want that seat Dragon...
    • 2 posts
    February 17, 2011 1:05 AM PST
    This is a bit academic in my case - Live in NY & the handgun licensing requirements are such a PITA that I do not wish to be bothered. - As for a concealed carry permit, that just ain't gonn'a happen in NY. - Open carry is legal under some circumstances, such as in the field or at the range but suspect open carry at the mall would be a quick confiscation of your piece followed by a trip to the slammer.

    BUT

    Your logic is correct as far as it goes BUT open carry was tried in Florida & the end results embarrassed even me, made hand gun owners look like A.H.s.
    Remember watching the evening news, hours after open carry was made legal, some old lady in pink hot-shorts, is strolling about w/ a 44 mag., Smith w/ an 8" bbl. in a Buscadero Belt - Doubt she had ever shot it, not sure she could have. - Cheeze lady, cover up, get a 38 w/ a shorter bbl., see Uncle Mike about holster
    • 1780 posts
    February 17, 2011 1:20 AM PST
    Well I guess I will give my opinion, and it's a pretty short one. I've been twice to AZ Bike week where open carry is legal (except in a Bar) so I opened carried. After about the second day (after the novelity) wore off it was really no big deal. If fact there must be plenty if Citizens in AZ that don't know they have an open carry law. I got a bunch of strange looks, so I then decide to conceal carry. All that boils down to one point......I want to (as a tax paying citizen of the United States of America and who has fought for the right) make the decision to open or conceal carry, not a bunch of over paided puppets of Rich persuation.
    Watch it Dragon......your going there
    • 58 posts
    February 17, 2011 2:16 AM PST
    Dragon, as usual, you hit the tack dead center!!!
  • February 17, 2011 2:40 AM PST
    I'm with tweek on this one...However on a personel note: I would rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6...Yep! You guessed it...I carry all the time....
    RandyJoe...Ride Strong...
  • February 17, 2011 2:43 AM PST
      There is a time and a place for each...concealed or open carry. Regardless, they will have their requirements, i.e. mandatory training, demonstrate weapon proficiency, etc.; and that is all well and good. But once those requirements have been met, I agree that it should be a choice. But I fear that all that will be accomplished is another debate on guns, gun owners, self defense rights, etc..
  • February 17, 2011 2:45 AM PST
    By the way...Shovelhead, that IS one heck of a seat. Like the way your rounds are handy too!!
    • 3006 posts
    February 17, 2011 3:23 AM PST
    Never carried & never will,not unless martial law is declared,not openly or concealed.
    In my mind I have no problem with others who chose to carry,either openly or concealed.
    In the end,its all a matter of security for the person carrying.Wether he be legal or illegal,criminal or law abiding.
    The few times my personal security has been threatened,I have been able to avoid real unpleasantness,w/out the crutch of having a weapon handy.The number of people each year who pass away from friendly fire in USA must be higher then other countries,where guns are prohibited entirely?
    Like one poster earlier said, what happens when folks start making gawd awfull fashion statements??? w/the open carry rule??? whats next pink holsters and matching gucci shoes???..arrgghhh..!!!
  • February 17, 2011 3:42 AM PST
    Dragon nailed it again we should be the ones to decide where an when we carry not some Fat Cat. I am from NY and we have some of the toughest wepons laws around ( thank Tim Sullivan for some of that ) Even though I have an unrestricted carry permit for this state you still have to get an NYC attachment to cary in the city. And if you cary into other states check the laws they are all different. Again its up to the individual how he or she perfers to carry not some Fat Cat
  • February 17, 2011 6:28 AM PST
    My only objection to any sort of licensing of weapons is the premeditation aspect of that.
    If you get a license to carry you are admitting you MAY use the thing and that removes the spontaneity of any situation...if you just have a gun and use it you can still CLAIM it was all done out of a genuine fear for your immediate welfare...not so if you plan the arming of yourself.
    In TX they have a Castle Law which states you may shoot anyone invading your domicile...including your RV or anyplace you are sleeping...I like that and it doesn't require you to license the weapon to make it legitimate to use.
  • February 17, 2011 6:35 AM PST
    99Savage wrote...
    This is a bit academic in my case - Live in NY & the handgun licensing requirements are such a PITA that I do not wish to be bothered. - As for a concealed carry permit, that just ain't gonn'a happen in NY. - Open carry is legal under some circumstances, such as in the field or at the range but suspect open carry at the mall would be a quick confiscation of your piece followed by a trip to the slammer.

    BUT

    Your logic is correct as far as it goes BUT open carry was tried in Florida & the end results embarrassed even me, made hand gun owners look like A.H.s.
    Remember watching the evening news, hours after open carry was made legal, some old lady in pink hot-shorts, is strolling about w/ a 44 mag., Smith w/ an 8" bbl. in a Buscadero Belt - Doubt she had ever shot it, not sure she could have. - Cheeze lady, cover up, get a 38 w/ a shorter bbl., see Uncle Mike about holster

    with reservations...I do carry when I feel it is appropreate...and dont have a license...I do use a small Ruger sp11 with 125 gr jacketed hollow points so I get the most knockdown for the money and dont kill strangers down range...but if everyone carried I would feel less threatened by random violense and probablly not carry as often.

    • 223 posts
    February 17, 2011 10:33 AM PST
    I'm 5' 3" tall, and while I'm pretty stocky, I'm no spring chicken and I know my limits. I want the odds evened, preferably in my favor. I've been on both ends of the gun and I've been lucky enough to survive when I got shot. Once was a hunting accident when I was 8, once when I was in the wrong place at the wrong time outside of Chicago, and once by my ex-husband who pistol whipped me, shot me, then left me for dead. The injuries I received from my ex are life-long as are the complications from them, but it hasn't kept me from carrying a gun whenever and wherever it's appropriate. I spend a lot of time on the road alone, some places there's no cell coverage, so what's a girl to do without any other choices? I have no intention of letting someone get close enough to me, for me to try and use a knife. And no matter how good I am in hand combat, there's always someone bigger, better, faster, and stronger... and I know it.

    Kansas is the first state I've not had a concealed carry permit. My class is on the 2nd to get that permit so I can be legal. Even if I weren't eligible for one, I'd still have my gun with me.

    As the old saying goes... they can have my gun when they pry it from my cold dead hands.
  • February 17, 2011 11:10 AM PST
    WOW Ain't no way I can top these posts. Good luck to you all
  • February 17, 2011 12:37 PM PST
    I'm a big fan of shooting with my friends at the local range or out in the Az. desert on my buddies property. I'm not licensed to carry a concealed weapon in California nor do i ever plan on getting one. I can understand why some of you here on cyclefish carry guns for job requirements but I'm just not in favor of the general public being armed everywhere they choose to go. I don't want to be standing in line with my slurpee wh en some idiot comes in to rob the place and the three guys behind me open up on him and they wind up shooting me or one of my loved ones in the process. Everything I own is heavily insured and call me a Christian or bible waving fool but I don't own anything that is worth taking the life of a fellow human being. Don't confuse me with someone who would not draw my weapon if one of my family members or someone else was in imminent danger. I am just very tired of hearing all of America running at the mouth about how they would kill someone if they were caught on their property. Sad because they may just be a homeless veteran who is trying to temporarily get out of the elements. Btw great article Dragon.
    • 223 posts
    February 17, 2011 2:58 PM PST
    I have no problem with someone being on my property, happens all the time around here. What I have a problem with, is the individual who comes into my home packing any kind of weapon and my rights as a legal and responsible gun owner being threatened or removed leaving me no recourse than to become a criminal in order to protect my family or those who can't protect themselves. Anyone who breaks into my home and threatens my family, IF they get by my dogs, better be ready to face my .40 caliber, if that's the one I pick up. That is if my kids or husband don't get to them before I do. Same in my car or on my bike or out walking. I want the odds at least evened out a bit.

    We may sound like extremists, but when you've been shot, it makes you think a little differently about "gun control." Getting shot hurts. I know. My family has a lot of guns. We go out regularly with the kids and shoot on the range. We've taught our kids since they were little about gun safety and responsibility, and they are two very different things. If you go back in the prayers section, a neighbor kid of ours was shot by a foster brother when they were playing with a gun. That should have never happened, especially in the presence of "responsible" adults. Those kids weren't taught anything about guns, other than they're "cool." Guns are not cool or neat, they're deadly. They were designed to kill. Period.

    In my line of work I've had guns pulled on me. I work in an ER and have idiots come in all the time drunk and armed. But I'm not allowed to carry a firearm or even have one on the property. That's what the law says. I abide by it. I can call 9-1-1 if I can get to a phone, but who knows how long it will take them to get there? And in the meantime, I have to try to talk down this individual while the rest of the staff gets the patients and themselves to safety. Why me? Because that's what I'm trained to do. So who's going to get shot? Me. But it's also a choice I make because it's what I do and I'm good at it.

    Being a gun owner is a choice and for some, a very personal one. I don't argue with anyone who doesn't want to own a gun or shoot one, again it's a choice. So is drawing your weapon. So is pointing it. So is firing it. I've been on both ends of the gun and neither are places I prefer to be. But if I have to be, it's going to be on the butt end, not the barrel end.

    Criminals aren't going to give up their guns and neither am I.
  • February 17, 2011 11:12 PM PST
    Great posts guys the Dragon has hit a home run on this one. The great part about the Cyclefish Crew is we are all allowed to speak our minds and still at the end of the day remain friends. Just be safe out there. Webby
    • Moderator
    • 16870 posts
    February 18, 2011 1:13 AM PST
    Where I live it is optional, I carry mostly concealed.
    The reason is if something does "go down" I like the stealth advantage.
    Surprisingly when my sidearm somehow becomes visual in public nobody has become stupid about it.
    I practice drawing my sidearm from many different concealed situations, from under a T-shirt to a bulky winter coat, pockets, different holsters, ect..
  • February 18, 2011 2:58 AM PST
    razncain wrote...
    I have no problem with someone being on my property, happens all the time around here. What I have a problem with, is the individual who comes into my home packing any kind of weapon and my rights as a legal and responsible gun owner being threatened or removed leaving me no recourse than to become a criminal in order to protect my family or those who can't protect themselves. Anyone who breaks into my home and threatens my family, IF they get by my dogs, better be ready to face my .40 caliber, if that's the one I pick up. That is if my kids or husband don't get to them before I do. Same in my car or on my bike or out walking. I want the odds at least evened out a bit.

    We may sound like extremists, but when you've been shot, it makes you think a little differently about "gun control." Getting shot hurts. I know. My family has a lot of guns. We go out regularly with the kids and shoot on the range. We've taught our kids since they were little about gun safety and responsibility, and they are two very different things. If you go back in the prayers section, a neighbor kid of ours was shot by a foster brother when they were playing with a gun. That should have never happened, especially in the presence of "responsible" adults. Those kids weren't taught anything about guns, other than they're "cool." Guns are not cool or neat, they're deadly. They were designed to kill. Period.

    In my line of work I've had guns pulled on me. I work in an ER and have idiots come in all the time drunk and armed. But I'm not allowed to carry a firearm or even have one on the property. That's what the law says. I abide by it. I can call 9-1-1 if I can get to a phone, but who knows how long it will take them to get there? And in the meantime, I have to try to talk down this individual while the rest of the staff gets the patients and themselves to safety. Why me? Because that's what I'm trained to do. So who's going to get shot? Me. But it's also a choice I make because it's what I do and I'm good at it.

    Being a gun owner is a choice and for some, a very personal one. I don't argue with anyone who doesn't want to own a gun or shoot one, again it's a choice. So is drawing your weapon. So is pointing it. So is firing it. I've been on both ends of the gun and neither are places I prefer to be. But if I have to be, it's going to be on the butt end, not the barrel end.

    Criminals aren't going to give up their guns and neither am I.

    If me and the mrs. come for a visit we will call ahead of time ok!!    Be safe